If there was no other documentation of the mabul, you would surely ask how come the Torah is the first one to talk about it, thousand years after the fact. But now that you see others had the same tradition, you're upset that the Torah took the story from them. Guess it's not possible to make an atheist happy. Oh well.
Interesting perspective. Do you consider myths to be "documentation"? Would you say the same about myths from other religions, like Jesus walking on water or Muhammed splitting the moon?
Got it. So you see the flood story as a historical event and these mesopotamian myths as traditions of that event? How do you deal with the issues I laid out for a historical worldwide flood?
It's not just history. It's evidence from multiple areas of science. Below are some of the major issues. I'd be very curious to hear how you deal with them.
- Geological evidence: Scientists have extensively studied the geological record and found no evidence of a global flood that matches the description of Noach's flood. The rock layers and formations show no signs of a catastrophic flooding event that would have covered the entire Earth.
- Lack of archaeological evidence: Despite numerous archaeological expeditions and discoveries around the world, no evidence has been found to support the occurrence of a global flood that wiped out all human and animal life, as described in biblical accounts.
- Incompatibility with the laws of physics: The sheer magnitude of water required to cover the entire Earth, including the highest mountains, as stated in the story of Noach's flood, would defy basic laws of physics. The amount of water needed to accomplish this would far exceed the amount that exists on Earth, making it scientifically implausible.
- Diversity of species: The Torah explains that Noach brought a pair (or seven) of every species on Earth into the ark, implying that all species we have today descended from those surviving on the ark. However, the vast diversity of species we see today cannot be adequately explained by such a limited gene pool; it contradicts the principles of genetic diversity and evolution.
None of these sound like major questions to me. But the third one is outright laughable. Like everything about the mabul is natural, just there's not enough water. Get it.
"Suppose I claimed Hashem shared a tale of Harry Potter with me, where instead of Hogwarts and Voldemort, the boy attends “Torah School” and defeats “Amalek.” Would this seem like an authentic divine revelation, or plagiarism of a human work?"
This is because we assume that fiction =/= scholarly. For us, fiction is merely a diversion, while the important stuff is found in the nonfiction department. In contrast. in the ancient world, myth was the nonfiction of its time. And all cultures reworked other culture's myths. This was the dominant form of information. It would make perfect sense for Hashem to utilize it.
I wouldn't agree with your first point. I don't think fiction is merely a diversion. Harry Potter has taught me deep meaningful lessons and so has the Torah. Much deeper lessons than any scholarly work.
Your second point that all cultures reworked other culture's myths and therefore it makes sense that hashem would do the same I hear more. Is that falsifiable though? How would we distinguish between a text written by hashem in the style of humans and a text written by humans?
2) Not consciously, but probably. It's a hard question. I do not want to be a kofer, because it's assur, but I can't believe something blatantly false just because Meiselman (or even the Torah) tells me to. And I also consider my religious experiences to be authoritative evidence as well. So it's complicated.
1. It's hard to date these texts exactly because they were written in an oral culture where texts floated around orally before being written down in various forms. The best preserved version of the epic of Atrahasis is from the 17th C. BCE, hundreds of years before the traditional date of matan torah. The earliest text we have of the epic of gilgamesh is also from that time period. Both are probably older than that though. Very hard to say they copied from the Torah, as they're considered the oldest literary texts in history.
2. The "traditionalists" not only have to say the laws of physics were suspended during that time, but also the laws of history because we have evidence of continuous cultures throughout the world for thousands of years and no mabul wiping everyone out.
3. Yes, flood stories are all around the world. When an area experienced an intense flood, or was prone to flooding often, a flood myth will usually develop. Here's a great short TED talk about this phenomenon - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chHU5HPkxmM
What's unique about these Mesopotamian flood stories are how similar they are in form and content to the Torah's stories that came later, leading most scholars to believe that the Noah flood story was composed based on older Mesopotamian flood myths.
Have you ever had a basement flood? Do you know that mould results from it on the walls and floor?
Perhaps the fire of the offering burned away some of the residual offensive smells of the receding waters and rotten underbrush?
If there was no other documentation of the mabul, you would surely ask how come the Torah is the first one to talk about it, thousand years after the fact. But now that you see others had the same tradition, you're upset that the Torah took the story from them. Guess it's not possible to make an atheist happy. Oh well.
Interesting perspective. Do you consider myths to be "documentation"? Would you say the same about myths from other religions, like Jesus walking on water or Muhammed splitting the moon?
Of course not. "Documentation" may not have been the best word. You can reword it to "traditions" if you'd like.
Got it. So you see the flood story as a historical event and these mesopotamian myths as traditions of that event? How do you deal with the issues I laid out for a historical worldwide flood?
History is not a proven science, and theories keep on changing.
Historians get some things right, and some things wrong.
It's not just history. It's evidence from multiple areas of science. Below are some of the major issues. I'd be very curious to hear how you deal with them.
- Geological evidence: Scientists have extensively studied the geological record and found no evidence of a global flood that matches the description of Noach's flood. The rock layers and formations show no signs of a catastrophic flooding event that would have covered the entire Earth.
- Lack of archaeological evidence: Despite numerous archaeological expeditions and discoveries around the world, no evidence has been found to support the occurrence of a global flood that wiped out all human and animal life, as described in biblical accounts.
- Incompatibility with the laws of physics: The sheer magnitude of water required to cover the entire Earth, including the highest mountains, as stated in the story of Noach's flood, would defy basic laws of physics. The amount of water needed to accomplish this would far exceed the amount that exists on Earth, making it scientifically implausible.
- Diversity of species: The Torah explains that Noach brought a pair (or seven) of every species on Earth into the ark, implying that all species we have today descended from those surviving on the ark. However, the vast diversity of species we see today cannot be adequately explained by such a limited gene pool; it contradicts the principles of genetic diversity and evolution.
None of these sound like major questions to me. But the third one is outright laughable. Like everything about the mabul is natural, just there's not enough water. Get it.
"Suppose I claimed Hashem shared a tale of Harry Potter with me, where instead of Hogwarts and Voldemort, the boy attends “Torah School” and defeats “Amalek.” Would this seem like an authentic divine revelation, or plagiarism of a human work?"
This is because we assume that fiction =/= scholarly. For us, fiction is merely a diversion, while the important stuff is found in the nonfiction department. In contrast. in the ancient world, myth was the nonfiction of its time. And all cultures reworked other culture's myths. This was the dominant form of information. It would make perfect sense for Hashem to utilize it.
I wouldn't agree with your first point. I don't think fiction is merely a diversion. Harry Potter has taught me deep meaningful lessons and so has the Torah. Much deeper lessons than any scholarly work.
Your second point that all cultures reworked other culture's myths and therefore it makes sense that hashem would do the same I hear more. Is that falsifiable though? How would we distinguish between a text written by hashem in the style of humans and a text written by humans?
I don't think we can. I don't believe my proposal is falsifiable, merely explanatory.
A potential way would be if it refutes myths not contemporaneous to its supppsed original audience, for example imitating Davidic era myths.
if it imitated Davidic era myths, wouldn't you just say that those myths must have copied from the Torah which came before it?
Probably.
Do you listen to my chumash shiur? I don't think holding of later authorship of the Torah necessarily makes one a kofer.
I don't but I'd love to listen if you have a link.
Do you try to only hold beliefs that are not considered kefirah?
1) feel free to email me at ashssubstacks@gmail.com for a copy.
2) Not consciously, but probably. It's a hard question. I do not want to be a kofer, because it's assur, but I can't believe something blatantly false just because Meiselman (or even the Torah) tells me to. And I also consider my religious experiences to be authoritative evidence as well. So it's complicated.
Good points! I'll try to address each one.
1. It's hard to date these texts exactly because they were written in an oral culture where texts floated around orally before being written down in various forms. The best preserved version of the epic of Atrahasis is from the 17th C. BCE, hundreds of years before the traditional date of matan torah. The earliest text we have of the epic of gilgamesh is also from that time period. Both are probably older than that though. Very hard to say they copied from the Torah, as they're considered the oldest literary texts in history.
2. The "traditionalists" not only have to say the laws of physics were suspended during that time, but also the laws of history because we have evidence of continuous cultures throughout the world for thousands of years and no mabul wiping everyone out.
3. Yes, flood stories are all around the world. When an area experienced an intense flood, or was prone to flooding often, a flood myth will usually develop. Here's a great short TED talk about this phenomenon - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chHU5HPkxmM
What's unique about these Mesopotamian flood stories are how similar they are in form and content to the Torah's stories that came later, leading most scholars to believe that the Noah flood story was composed based on older Mesopotamian flood myths.